These new and impressionable girls are being done a great disservice here.
The assumption that some will shag a photographer as they think it is "normal" or "expected" is highly insulting to say the least. To also add they might need some extra money is outrageous. How many models take money for sex on a shoot?

I would wager that 999 out of 1,000 wouldn't agree to that, maybe 999.99 is closer. However, I am sure some are propositioned but deal with it in a variety of ways, one of which might be quitting modelling before they got started, which is a shame for some.

I can't actually think of anyone I know, obviously myself excluded, who has shagged a model on a shoot. I can think of a few who have ended up in a relationship, but that happens in all walks of life, plumbers, office workers and no doubt, window cleaners.

There are no doubt a lot of photographers who are looking to get more than just pictures, but I bet it is a tiny fraction that succeed. Saying a few models do and this exacerbates the problem would be wholly wrong in my opinion, it ain't the models' faults.

I think this is a very sad state of affairs and no model should have to put up with this kind of behaviour. However I have also seen comments on here where so called "models" offer "other services" to photographers, which is also unacceptable as this site exists for models & photographers to be put together to produce photographs only.
As it appears there is no way of getting these people banned, then the only was as previously said appears to be to make sure these people are given negative references with honest comments that will leave nobody in the dark about their inappropriate behaviour. It is then down to models & photographers alike to ensure they check references before agreeing to proceed.

Matt,

I wasnt meaning to pay them a disservice that wasnt what i meant and in no way did i mean to disrespect anyone, i did say could end up, but i do take your point i could have worded it better.

All i was trying to say was that if things dont get reported as they should be something untoward could happen, and thats the last thing any of us wants.

Dave



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Constructive Criticism welcome but be constructive...

quoting post from HiStakesPhotography:

---

Matt,

I wasnt meaning to pay them a disservice that wasnt what i meant and in no way did i mean to disrespect anyone, i did say could end up, but i do take your point i could have worded it better.

All i was trying to say was that if things dont get reported as they should be something untoward could happen, and thats the last thing any of us wants.

Dave



----------------------------------------------------------
Constructive Criticism welcome but be constructive...

---

wasn't a pop Dave, I will save that until you win POTD again

We all know the problem, but the bigger problem is dealing with the problem. There is such a distinct lack of guts around nowadays, everyone is scared of their own shadow. I reckon we should train a few models to be assassins and when these things happen, they can leave the perverts in a hotel room with their severed cock hanging out their own arse.

I suppose that comment might be deleted, shame though, I smiled typing it. Pity the problem photographers aren't dealt with as harshly as someone who gets a bit gobby on the forum

Well, it is Friday night, not had a drink in a week; I hope this thread is dead before I get pissed or I might speak too freely

quoting post from mattharper:

---

wasn't a pop Dave, I will save that until you win POTD again

I reckon we should train a few models to be assassins and when these things happen, they can leave the perverts in a hotel room with their severed cock hanging out their own arse.

I suppose that comment might be deleted, shame though, I smiled typing it. Pity the problem photographers aren't dealt with as harshly as someone who gets a bit gobby on the forum

---

Matt,
wasnt taken as a pop dont worry but re read what id wrote and thought yes point taken,

Win BPOTD again, nah to many people entering with amazing images these days, mind you i have guessed 6 out of the 7 last winners.

And as for the leaving the perverts line im sat here laughing and i couldnt agree more.

Something does need to be done but unfortunately it wont be started by you or me but needs to be started by the girls leaving refs that are factually correct, yes they may lose booking from the pervs weve left in the hotel rooms but there lives will be better for it as they will have an easier life and a much more enjoyable time.

Now go get drunk and speak freely and if the Mods dont like it Tough, its worth a bollocking now and then if it serves the purpose and keeps these cocks (so to speak) away from the girls.

Katie,

youve got Photographers backing you and models backing you, so please do what you know you should do.


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Constructive Criticism welcome but be constructive...

Its a shame that some muppets have to spoil things for everyone else, as a new photographer myself it hard enough to try and get a portfolio together and learn the art without bloody idiots scareing models. the same goes for new models they must be nervous about working with new togs to get a portfolio together.

quoting post from HiStakesPhotography:

---

Katie,

First let me start by saying no one should have to put up with or accept that kind of behavior and as others have said report it, but also let other models know.

Now as a recent return(ie) to modeling photography what does surprise me is when i chat to the girls ive worked with is that some of them (no disrespect intended) dont check Refs out or check out the photographers in any way.
In all of my first communications I tell them to contact any of the other girls I've worked with, and i know those that have and im surprised by the amount that dont as they are then cold calling on the unknown.

The other thing that shocked me was "arrived with a Blackberry", at that point kick his arse out of your house and say No!

Im not having a go at you and if it seems that way Im sorry, but ill put my work head on im a health & safety (sorry) and remind you that at work of any type the first rule is to "protect yourself" and buy not checking Refs and not kicking his arse out when he arrived with a Blackberry you arent.

Most of the guys here are probably as pissed off with this as you are and I am as its ruining what should be fun, hard work sometimes yes but fun, but until you girls start being factually correct on Refs instead of leaving "oh hes nice" these tossers will keep ruining it for everyone and god forbid could end up getting what they want of off the newer impressionable girls, or some who need that little extra money.

So please, do the right thing report him to the mods (yes i know it may not help)
Report it to Zenith (who WILL warn other models)
leave an unambiguous factual Reference so others arent left in the same position.
BUT please check out the refs from the girls they have worked with dont just assume because the words say "hes nice" he is.

Again i apologize if it seems im having a go at you i really am not, but sometimes being harsh gets the message across better than being soft and polite.

Katie, stay doing something youve loved and dont let these idiots push you away.

Dave





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Constructive Criticism welcome but be constructive...

---

You've only addressed half the problem with that reply and that is because some times a photographer can be falsely accused. How do you know who is telling the truth, you don't. Even collaborative evidence is meaningless as friends often back each other up.
As what happened last year.
If you upset a model one day and then that model decides to tell Zenith or anyone else running a book on photographers that you are a perv. (It has happened it isn't hypothetical) Then you wouldn't even know about it until practically every model in the country is avoiding you like the plague and you don't know why.
When eventually you do find out it is too late your name has already gone down the sewer.
I know two photographers from here that has happened to and it was devastating for them.

I don't say I have the answer but a secret book isn't it.

quoting post from Circles_of_Confusion:

---

You've only addressed half the problem with that reply and that is because some times a photographer can be falsely accused. How do you know who is telling the truth, you don't. Even collaborative evidence is meaningless as friends often back each other up.
As what happened last year.
If you upset a model one day and then that model decides to tell Zenith or anyone else running a book on photographers that you are a perv. (It has happened it isn't hypothetical) Then you wouldn't even know about it until practically every model in the country is avoiding you like the plague and you don't know why.
When eventually you do find out it is too late your name has already gone down the sewer.
I know two photographers from here that has happened to and it was devastating for them.

I don't say I have the answer but a secret book isn't it.

---

QED

I see you are still here, don't condemn All of us for a few bad apples....

quoting post from Circles_of_Confusion:

---

You've only addressed half the problem with that reply and that is because some times a photographer can be falsely accused. How do you know who is telling the truth, you don't. Even collaborative evidence is meaningless as friends often back each other up.
As what happened last year.
If you upset a model one day and then that model decides to tell Zenith or anyone else running a book on photographers that you are a perv. (It has happened it isn't hypothetical) Then you wouldn't even know about it until practically every model in the country is avoiding you like the plague and you don't know why.
When eventually you do find out it is too late your name has already gone down the sewer.
I know two photographers from here that has happened to and it was devastating for them.

I don't say I have the answer but a secret book isn't it.

---

The biggest problem is those photographers who claim they aren't perverts.
I am and am well known for it. Most are, in my opinion, why else would they want to photograph scantily dressed and pretty young girls, or naked ones? They don't often photograph fat and ugly ones so all one can assume is they like the look of the models, that being the biggest motive. The handy bit is, they can call it art or creativity. I am sure there are some models who wholly accept this and deal with it by having strong personalities, or don't care, so long as they get their money.

The problem is that now and then, a photographer will overstep the mark, as we have seen a few times as you ay, Ken. Fortunately, I am scared of women as well as fascinated by them.

Posting casting calls asking for hard or pornographic work (which incidentally is left undefined) is against site rules, but what about requests made in the private messaging system? I genuinely don't know what the situation is here? My understanding is that people can ask and I can say no, but please advise me if this is a misapprehension. There does seem to be more than usual of the people asking and me saying no sort of stuff about at the present!

Naming and shaming without good evidence is inadvisable - and can be unfair as COC rightly points out. It can even prejudice the probability of a just conviction.But models talk and word does tend to get round. It seems unlikely that a genuinely abusive photographer would have the gall to go for a libel action?

Personally I think that some of the actions that have alledgedly happened on shoots are actionable and ought to be reported to the police rather than just incur a bad reference. I do sometimes check references, but sometimes take them with a bit of a pinch of salt. It is only one part of checking out a potential work situation, and those photographers I have ended up working with and have not rejected from the outset, have been lovely. It is odd how often just having a bad gut feeling about someone turns out to be justified.

But it is indeed a shame for models or photographers to be frightened off. There is so much good work and so many nice people on here.

quoting post from Bob_d:

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Threads like this are always disappointing.

Disappointing that this sort of stuff actually happens in the first place, and disappointing that it seems difficult to stamp it out!

I am sure there are professional and (very) unprofessional people on the site, and it is important to report the bad ones, be they model or photographer, and do it publicly without fear of some backlash.

The reports should be explored, and if proven, appropriate action taken, including getting rid.....

The alternative is the dark days of gossip, and "little black books" that have brought the site to where it seems to be now!

---

You are blaming the little black book thing for the state of this site? That is a tad OTT is it not?

quoting post from RobGolding:

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You are blaming the little black book thing for the state of this site? That is a tad OTT is it not?

---

not blaming entirely.......but it was a symptom of the bickering and general grumpiness from a year or so ago....

I agree with others that you need to grow some balls and report the tog. From reading your thread it seems that you are moaning & groaning about what happened, but have done absolutely nothing about it.

I am a bit confused when I read this -

" I had a shoot three weeks ago that was ment to be a lingerie shoot, the 'tog' turned up with a blackberry as his camera and asked if he could 'finish himself off' after the shoot in my bathroom the same bathroom my four year old son uses ".

You stated that ' I had a shoot ', this means to me that even though the photographer turned up with a blackberry as his camera and asked you if he could do a sexual act, you still went ahead with the shoot. This is very strange behaviour. HiStakesPhotography is right when he asked why did you not kick his arse out of your house immediately. It would be helpful if you responded to this point.

Helen Diaz, mades another valid observation regarding your portfolio. You say that you have been modelling for nine years, but your portfolio is very poor.

CoC, is right when he says that how do you know who is telling the truth when a model makes an allegation that a photographer made sexual advances towards her. It is a case of 'he said, she said'. Who do you believe.

I think an application of common sense would go a long way towards stopping a lot of these problems.

1. If Tog has no references take a chaperone or shoot at a studio you know where you can get help if you need it. We all have a first shoot with a model where we have no prior history for people to check so just play it safe.
2. Reward inappropriate behaviour with an abrupt end to the shoot and a negative ref. Keep it factual and to the point and not a personal attack and it'll be seen as a serious comment.
3. If a Tog turns up with a blackberry or even an iPhone :-) then don't even start the session....unless he's a well known one who's trying to do something experimental maybe and you've discussed the concept first. If i was to try that it'd be with a model i'd worked with before who knew I was serious about the photography.
4. Positive feedback....again....keep it direct and to the point. That applies to both model and tog feedback. Keep it businesslike and you'll be seen as a serious model or tog.
5. Portfolios....keep them professional in nature. Same reasoning, it'll have you viewed as somebody who's serious about what they do.

There's no reason not to have a laugh and joke on a shoot or in correspondence but keep it clean and there is no chance of misunderstanding. But never be afraid to report something...esp if you have it in writing!

Yosi babba- I never allowed the 'blackberry' shoot to happen he was kicked out my house soon after her arrived. An something most certainly has done about it! Like I said earlyer, I will keep everyone updated.

So is this site any worse than the other model/photography sites and have things deteriorated here over the last year?

I suspect that having an open door policy for new members is not the optimum strategy to keep standards high.

quoting post from mattharper:

---

I reckon we should
train a few models to be assassins and when these
things happen, they can leave the perverts in a
hotel room with their severed cock hanging out
their own arse.

---

I am trained for that!

Come on then, stop being so cryptic, it looks as if you are referring to someone posting in this thread by the way you have written your last paragraph....

I'm surprised by 2 things that have come to light from this thread.

1) There really are men that behave like this out there.

2) There are models with several years of modelling, and general life, experience, that will allow a stranger into their home, to photograph them nude without doing some basic screening first. The Blackberry guy can't have had a credible portfolio, or references.

I know many models communicate with each other to check out prospective photographers. I had a couple refuse me when I had no references, and fair enough. We need to start in supervised studio or group shoot situations to gain skills and credibility.

Katie, it's a shame that the reality is that there are these people out there. If you do your homework on prospective photographers you will probably get less work and much fewer bad experiences. It would be a shame for you to give up something you enjoy because of a bad experience that you probably could have avoided. A guy shows up with a Blackberry for a camera? As John McEnroe says 'you can't be serious!' I can't believe you took your kit off for him and did a shoot.

quoting post from Bob_d:

---

not blaming entirely.......but it was a symptom of the bickering and general grumpiness from a year or so ago....

---

The only people bickering were the people who thought it was outrageous and wrong, as far as I can recall.
I doubt very much if it made one iota of difference to the way this site was heading though. NM was already well on the way down the tubes by then...

quoting post from Bikie:

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I can't believe you took your kit off for him and did a shoot.

---

If you read the thread properly, you will find that she didn't.

Another thing if people were serious about stopping this kind of thing then they wouldn't conduct all their modelling affairs on Facebook.
We had a thriving community before facebook where we still had GWC's but they were outed pretty quickly hundreds of members knew each other everyone would have to behave to general standard or face a gruelling from everyone else.

It was in it's own way self policing. But now all the models and the photographers do their dealings on facebook. It may be easier, it is what many models have grown up with but if you leave a site that is specifically designed to put models with photographers then you are opening the flood gates to have every perv in the country asking you for a shoot.

They may make the initial contact on a site like this but everything else is done on facebook or MSN and then next week they are back with a different name. Only they've got all your other modelling friends in their list and when they've changed their name nobody knows who they are again. Looking for their next victim and there is nobody hardly left here to join up the dots anymore because everyone is too effing concerned with increasing the number of "friends" they have on facebook....The whole thing is ridiculously obvious, it beggars belief why people still do it.

Also the point about no photo's on their port...Most of the pervs steal photo's for their port.

Sniffer dog awesome Orson has brought a few of them to everyone's attention during his time here along with a few others....If he went there would be no one left who is particularly good at spotting these bogus ports....That is why it would so much better to have dedicated community for photographer/models than losing it all to facebook.

Basically if you get bookings on face book and this happens to you while it isn't nice your actions and the actions of many other facebook dealing models and photographers are compromising the the integrity of the industry or hobby whichever aspect of it you move in but the end result will be all model photographers are pervs and all models are really prostitutes...And the daft thing is many are complaining but you are doing it to yourselves.

quoting post from mattharper:

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I would wager that 999 out of 1,000 wouldn't agree to that, maybe 999.99 is closer.

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You are being very optimistic.

(And you can't have 999.99 people out of 1,000. Just can't happen. It's a bit like putting 110% effort into something.)

quoting post from johnlp:

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You are being very optimistic.

(And you can't have 999.99 people out of 1,000. Just can't happen. It's a bit like putting 110% effort into something.)

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Well technically you could if you had a few schizophrenics among the 999...
Or even just one with 99 different personalties ...