A couple of years ago I did a TFP shoot with a model who I usually pay. Last week I was approached by two different publishers, who each bought one image for a book (one is a cover).
I notified the model in question and in the course of our email exchange, she asked whether she would receive any of the proceeds.
I must admit it had never ocurred to me, but in all fairness, I actually thought it was from a paid shoot, not a TF as it turned out.
So my question, is the model entitled (please don't turn it into a legal issue) to a share of the proceeds and if so, what percentage? Yes, she did receive copies from the shoot, it wasn't anticipated that any of the images would be sold.

If neither of your had any intention of the photos being sold then I would consider the income received and probably say yes, but you wouldn't be obliged to.

I think it would be fair.

If it was a paid shoot or a shoot where the photos had been intended to be sold this would have been factored into the initial payment and therefore no - I don't think it is fair to compensate the model for a sale.

How much, thats one I cant give an opinion on - sorry

Legally, I have no idea although probably not as you own copyright.

Morally, personally I'd say yes.

%......I couldn't say, but maybe you could discuss that with the model and find a mutually acceptable sum?

But, whatever you decide, well done on selling the image



Remember that happiness is as contagious as gloom

The answer if it was me, is dead simple....In your heart of hearts do you feel morally obliged to give the model some dosh from the proceeds?

If it were me, I would, I wouldn't concern myself with the legal issues, I'd just do what I felt was the right thing to do. As far as percentage was concerned I'd go 50/50

Same answer as C of C 50-50 seems fair. But congratulation to you both on the publication.

I'm aware of at least one photographer who regularly has published his lifestyle images where the model worked TF. I guess it's on the basis that the model was 'paid' by the images.

Personally I'd be inclined to give the model a share.

+1

Steve

You maybe good, it doesnt make you better.

If this were to happen to me, I would give the model a share, and 50/50 seems to be unexceptionable.

DavidL

Legally entitled, no (unless you had a specific agreement for the TF shoot).

My model release for a TF shoot binds me to discuss any commercial usage with the model, and guarantees them a percentage.

Similarly in reverse if the model wants to use the images.

Morally, I'd say it would be nice to share (I would split the profits.....)

That's just me though.

In a different world, where the model had free use of the images, would she have contacted you to ask if you want a share?

Good point Matt!

I ask myself, would I? I like to think I would but........yeah, probably.



Remember that happiness is as contagious as gloom

Not a complete answer but if you paid out any expenses towards the model it seems fairly normal to recoup those before giving her a share.

quoting post from SarahJaneModel:

---

Good point Matt!

I ask myself, would I? I like to think I would but........yeah, probably.



Remember that happiness is as contagious as gloom

---

Ruling out friends, most models are in it for what they can get and if it came to it, they would screw me given the chance.

As for the money aspect ...................

quoting post from Kenp:

---

A couple of years ago I did a TFP shoot with a model who I usually pay. Last week I was approached by two different publishers, who each bought one image for a book (one is a cover).
I notified the model in question and in the course of our email exchange, she asked whether she would receive any of the proceeds.
I must admit it had never ocurred to me, but in all fairness, I actually thought it was from a paid shoot, not a TF as it turned out.
So my question, is the model entitled (please don't turn it into a legal issue) to a share of the proceeds and if so, what percentage? Yes, she did receive copies from the shoot, it wasn't anticipated that any of the images would be sold.

---

Legally and morally are the same thing here - you collaborated, you took no fee, the model was paid in images, which presumably were useful and therefore her time was compensated for.

So, same as if she'd been paid in cash but had no images.

Actually? You're loaded, cough up

Seriously, entirely in your court - if you want to pay the lass, feel free, but I wouldn't feel any obligation to do so - and having attended an Emma Delves-Broughton exhibition featuring a friend of mine who was paid nothing but images, I know it's not uncommon. Seeing prints being chucked around for £300+ and having to settle for a cameraphone snap of the model standing next to the picture, I know the answer to that question as it stands


Ian

By far the best and fairest way to deal with random unexpected income from TF images is to re-invest it in another shoot with the same model ... I always do this, its a fair way for you both to get something useful from it ... if its enough money it can pay for a paid shoot, less money still means travel expenses or some new wardrobe, if its token money its still going to be enough to get the Danish pastries in or scoot down the cafe for a fry-up after, which is in my experience often all the incentive a model needs.

As I stated at the outset, this is a moral issue and I don't want people to raise 'legal' issues, primarily because it promotes silly replies like this. Especially comments suggesting that the absence of a MR or written consent could result in legal action.
I had pretty much made up my mind to split the proceeds, before posting the thread, but wanted to see what the general view was.

50:50 split will be a nice gesture... it could be 70:30 if the amount is bigger..

Ken, sounds like you've made a decision which, I personally feel is right thought I would throw in my 2 penny's worth.

I usually deduct expenses from the 'found' money, then pay everyone their day rate (Includes assts and mua etc) or an equal % off, and then if there is any profit left I split it out or re-invest it in discussion with the 'team'.. prob a bit socialist but I guess that explains why I don't own my own island...



-------------------------------------------------------------
Additional pics at www.flickr.com/photos/jeffemerson/
Let me know what you think, I appreciate all feedback

quoting post from Kenp:

---

I had pretty much made up my mind to split the proceeds, before posting the thread, but wanted to see what the general view was.

---

I thought you might - if I liked the model and had enjoyed the shoot, had plans to work with her again, I'd probably do the same.


Ian

quoting post from  istobie:

---

I thought you might - if I liked the model and had enjoyed the shoot, had plans to work with her again, I'd probably do the same.


Ian

---

So if it was a model you didn't like much and didn't enjoy the shoot with, you might think differently. Can one's moral compass change depending on whether you like someone or not

quoting post from Bob_d:

---

Legally entitled, no (unless you had a specific agreement for the TF shoot).

My model release for a TF shoot binds me to discuss any commercial usage with the model, and guarantees them a percentage.

Similarly in reverse if the model wants to use the images.

Morally, I'd say it would be nice to share (I would split the profits.....)

That's just me though.

---

I put that in my release forms as well for TF shoots. Any commercial use has to be approved by both parties.

It's basically a bonus income so I'd say go 50-50

quoting post from mattharper:

---

So if it was a model you didn't like much and didn't enjoy the shoot with, you might think differently. Can one's moral compass change depending on whether you like someone or not

---

Nothing to do with my moral compass.

I wouldn't feel legally or morally obliged to pass any of the proceeds on, but I may feel inclined to do so dependent on other circumstances.

Pay attention Matt

Ian

quoting post from  istobie:

---

Nothing to do with my moral compass.

I wouldn't feel legally or morally obliged to pass any of the proceeds on, but I may feel inclined to do so dependent on other circumstances.

Pay attention Matt

Ian

---

Sorry Boss

Congratulations on your publication; I'm sure it's another corker.

"Morally" I think it's generous to give 50:50, and that taking a higher cut yourself would be fine, as it allows for things like you maintaining your website as a shop window for your work, paying the model expenses, and other ways in which you may have made a greater input in order to receive payment for the work....you will know what the situation is....

And you might then swing the pendulum back int he models favor to give 50:50 on the basis that it was not something that was previously discussed or agreed to....

Of course there is no obligation to give anything, but it's all about relationship building, and why wouldn't you want to reward a great model who you enjoy working with if her look was part of what sold that image......

However, as then shoot compensation has changed from TF to "paid"....if the payment amounts to as much as a normal days work, does the model then feel she must give back the images and not use them?

Publication in the right places is often considered by models to be a form of payment, as having tearsheets is good for their folio...

Plenty of good photographers let models use images even from paid shoots, either for good relations, mutual promotions, or whatever other reasons, so it's all between the two of you to know what feels fair and beneficial to both parties.

quoting post from mattharper:

---

In a different world, where the model had free use of the images, would she have contacted you to ask if you want a share?

---

In my world this has happened to me....luckily the model was honest enough to let me know.