We seem to live in a conflicted world. Images of war and armed conflict are becoming all too familiar. Is this something that we can use as a starting point for creative expression in photographic form? I like the idea of equipping a group of models with suitable clothing and weaponry and doing a location shoot with a conflict theme, this could be in an urban or rural setting.

It depends on what you mean by "conflict themes". If you mean period shoots with male and female models in period dress with props and buildings from the era... there are plenty of well established re-enactor groups and shoots. These often take place on preserved, historic railway lines. These tend to mainly be 2nd World War. If you are thinking girls and guns, again this is an established genre, often with a glamour style. Several people run shoots in woods with old or wrecked military vehicles. What is rarer is the more documentary style of shoot, involving male and female models shot as though it was a documentary shot from a conflict. The type of serious shot which would be used in a book or factual article on an aspect of war.

As a someone who has photographed many models in uniform, sometimes with weapons, for over a quarter of a century my advice would be to steer clear of the subject unless both you and the models know precisely what you are doing. It is very easy to get it badly wrong unless you and they have military or conflict zone experience. Although not taken in a war zone, as I am now way too old to be bumbling around on or near the front line, this shot I took earlier this year of a British Army medic being evaluated while dealing with a simulated casualty during a NATO training exercise on a disused Soviet-era airfield in the Baltic region  is about as authentic as you can get. However it is not particularly glamorous and her uniform would be both difficult to accurately recreate and quite expensive. [img]https://www.joint-forces.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SR24-05-1272.jpg[/img] The comparatively simple shot below, taken on a NATO exercise in Estonia last year, would cost a fortune to recreate with models and hired uniforms and equipment plus getting the detail correct would be a nightmare. [img]https://www.joint-forces.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/KT23-4222.jpg[/img] As previously mentioned, much easier to work with Living History / Re-enactor groups, as below. [img]https://www.joint-forces.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Belt054.jpg[/img] Bob  

[quote][i][b]RolandRock[/b] wrote:[/i] It depends on what you mean by "conflict themes". If you mean period shoots with male and female models in period dress with props and buildings from the era... there are plenty of well established re-enactor groups and shoots. These often take place on preserved, historic railway lines. These tend to mainly be 2nd World War. If you are thinking girls and guns, again this is an established genre, often with a glamour style. Several people run shoots in woods with old or wrecked military vehicles. What is rarer is the more documentary style of shoot, involving male and female models shot as though it was a documentary shot from a conflict. The type of serious shot which would be used in a book or factual article on an aspect of war.[/quote] Those are three possible approaches. Within the "glamour" category there is quite a wide range of possibilities. I have photographed models posing with swords and replica guns, it's possible to look beyond glamour I think. The basic effect of any weapon prop, or any mobile prop is to increase the range of possible poses, which is useful in "art nude" photography as well.   I've seen books with models posing nude on military vehicles, like Tank Girls by Hans Halberstadt, they don't really convince me as either glamour or art photography, I think there is actually a lot of complexity and difficulty involved in making a concept like this work, it isn't an easy thing to do effectively, it requires very fine judgement.  The theme of conflict can be extended to include martial arts, so this is a possible avenue to explore, at a basic level I think it's a question of having an original concept that can be expressed well visually.

[quote][i][b]Bob[/b] wrote:[/i] As a someone who has photographed many models in uniform, sometimes with weapons, for over a quarter of a century my advice would be to steer clear of the subject unless both you and the models know precisely what you are doing. It is very easy to get it badly wrong unless you and they have military or conflict zone experience. Although not taken in a war zone, as I am now way too old to be bumbling around on or near the front line, this shot I took earlier this year of a British Army medic being evaluated while dealing with a simulated casualty during a NATO training exercise on a disused Soviet-era airfield in the Baltic region  is about as authentic as you can get. However it is not particularly glamorous and her uniform would be both difficult to accurately recreate and quite expensive. [img]https://www.joint-forces.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/SR24-05-1272.jpg[/img] The comparatively simple shot below, taken on a NATO exercise in Estonia last year, would cost a fortune to recreate with models and hired uniforms and equipment plus getting the detail correct would be a nightmare. [img]https://www.joint-forces.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/KT23-4222.jpg[/img] As previously mentioned, much easier to work with Living History / Re-enactor groups, as below. [img]https://www.joint-forces.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Belt054.jpg[/img] Bob  [/quote] When you talk about realism, that can mean one of two things I think. On the one hand it can mean a realistic recreation of a situation that has already taken place. On the other, it can mean something that just looks as though it MIGHT have some basis in reality. Even if you have a science fiction theme, like Star Wars, it needs to be believable at some level for people to identify with it. Realism is relative. 

[quote][i][b]JSouthworth[/b] wrote:[/i]  I've seen books with models posing nude on military vehicles, like Tank Girls by Hans Halberstadt[/quote] If you are talking about the Windrow & Green / WAG Books title [i]Tank Girls[/i], believe the author was John Hope and not Hans Halberstadt. That book (like the [i]Winsome Warriors[/i] books) was one of a series of military-themed glamour books commissioned by Alan Greene around 20 to 25 years ago at the height of the UK 'Lads Mag' glamour boom (which, coincidentally, to some extent prompted the formation of Net Model and Purestorm). The W&G glamour titles,  where the models wore minimalist military uniforms, were never commissioned for their realism even though the mostly historic uniforms and (usually restored) vehicles were usually reasonably authentic. Although American, the Vietnam veteran turned photographer / videographer / author Hans did pen titles for UK publishers Windrow & Greene,  as did I, but these were strictly documentary in nature. Our paths have not crossed in maybe 15 years but in the past he and I have used a few of each other's photographs to illustrate our publications. Bob

[quote][i][b]Bob[/b] wrote:[/i] [quote][i][b]JSouthworth[/b] wrote:[/i]  I've seen books with models posing nude on military vehicles, like Tank Girls by Hans Halberstadt[/quote] If you are talking about the Windrow & Green / WAG Books title [i]Tank Girls[/i], believe the author was John Hope and not Hans Halberstadt. That book (like the [i]Winsome Warriors[/i] books) was one of a series of military-themed glamour books commissioned by Alan Greene around 20 to 25 years ago at the height of the UK 'Lads Mag' glamour boom (which, coincidentally, to some extent prompted the formation of Net Model and Purestorm). The W&G glamour titles,  where the models wore minimalist military uniforms, were never commissioned for their realism even though the mostly historic uniforms and (usually restored) vehicles were usually reasonably authentic. Although American, the Vietnam veteran turned photographer / videographer / author Hans did pen titles for UK publishers Windrow & Greene,  as did I, but these were strictly documentary in nature. Our paths have not crossed in maybe 15 years but in the past he and I have used a few of each other's photographs to illustrate our publications. Bob[/quote] I think we may be talking about two different books, according to information on the internet the Windrow and Green book is Tank Girls by Hans Halberstadt and there's also an Osprey book, Tank Girls by John Francis Hope. They have different ISBN numbers but the same number of pages, so they might be different editions of the same book, it's all a little confusing. In any case I wasn't too impressed by some pictures which I saw on the web in 1998 or thereabouts. Most reviewers on Amazon don't seem impressed either.  The basic idea of juxtaposing female nudity and armoured vehicles for visual effect predates that book by a long way, for example there's the cover of the Plasmatics' Coup d'Etat LP from 1982 which works reasonably well, I wouldn't go so far as to say it was completely successful; [url=https://shop.totallyvinyl.com/record/21133-plasmatics-capitol-lp-promotional-issue-special-cover-test-pressing]Totally Vinyl Records || Plasmatics - Coup d'etat LP Promotional Issue Special Cover Test Pressing[/url] I think there needs to be some kind of believable or at least semi-believable subtext or narrative, if you think in terms of who are these people, why do they have a tank. 

[quote][i][b]JSouthworth[/b] wrote:[/i] I think we may be talking about two different books, according to information on the internet the Windrow and Green book is Tank Girls by Hans Halberstadt and there's also an Osprey book, Tank Girls by John Francis Hope.[/quote] Never trust anything on t'internet, especially if uploaded to Amazon, unless you can independently verify. The author of [i]Tank Girls[/i] was definitely John Francis Hope and the WAG (Windrow & Green) Books logo even appears at the foot of the cover on images on Amazon and Fleabay pages. [img]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IdUAAOSwRi9jfTLO/s-l1600.webp[/img] As far as I am aware Hans Halberstadt (who has published over 75 documentary books) never ventured into the glamour genre, and neither did Osprey Publishing. As for the different ISBNs, that is because possibly WAG Books were published in both the UK (from an office in Floral Street in London's Chinatown) and the US so might have needed different numbers for the two. If you have a copy of [i]Tank Girls[/i] with either Halberstadt or Osprey on the cover I'd love to see it, just in case my memory of working with Hans and/or both Publishing Houses is playing tricks. (Note [i]Tank Girl [/i]was a comic book character from the late eighties and not an ispiration for the Windrow & Green title) Bob  

[quote][i][b]Bob[/b] wrote:[/i] [quote][i][b]JSouthworth[/b] wrote:[/i] I think we may be talking about two different books, according to information on the internet the Windrow and Green book is Tank Girls by Hans Halberstadt and there's also an Osprey book, Tank Girls by John Francis Hope.[/quote] Never trust anything on t'internet, especially if uploaded to Amazon, unless you can independently verify. The author of [i]Tank Girls[/i] was definitely John Francis Hope and the WAG (Windrow & Green) Books logo even appears at the foot of the cover on images on Amazon and Fleabay pages. [img]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IdUAAOSwRi9jfTLO/s-l1600.webp[/img] As far as I am aware Hans Halberstadt (who has published over 75 documentary books) never ventured into the glamour genre, and neither did Osprey Publishing. As for the different ISBNs, that is because possibly WAG Books were published in both the UK (from an office in Floral Street in London's Chinatown) and the US so might have needed different numbers for the two. If you have a copy of [i]Tank Girls[/i] with either Halberstadt or Osprey on the cover I'd love to see it, just in case my memory of working with Hans and/or both Publishing Houses is playing tricks. (Note [i]Tank Girl [/i]was a comic book character from the late eighties and not an ispiration for the Windrow & Green title) Bob  [/quote] Here's a link to Tank Girls by Hans Halberstadt on Amazon; [url=https://www.amazon.com/Tank-Girls-Hans-Halberstadt/dp/1859151604]Tank Girls: Hans Halberstadt: 9781859151600: Amazon.com: Books[/url] and also here; [url=https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/Tank-Girls-by-Hans-Halberstadt/9781859151600]Tank Girls : Hans Halberstadt : 9781859151600 : Blackwell's (blackwells.co.uk)[/url] It is a little confusing I know, Hans Halberstadt wrote a number of other books about tanks and AFVs that didn't include nudity. If you're a friend then perhaps you can get him to tell us something about this book. I have no idea whether the Tank Girl comics provided the inspiration, it would be interesting to know. There was also a film adaptation of the comic book.

The basic idea of juxtaposing female nudity and armoured vehicles for visual effect predates that book by a long way, for example there's the cover of the Plasmatics' Coup d'Etat LP from 1982 which works reasonably well, I wouldn't go so far as to say it was completely successful; [url=https://shop.totallyvinyl.com/record/21133-plasmatics-capitol-lp-promotional-issue-special-cover-test-pressing]Totally Vinyl Records || Plasmatics - Coup d'etat LP Promotional Issue Special Cover Test Pressing[/url] I think there needs to be some kind of believable or at least semi-believable subtext or narrative, if you think in terms of who are these people, why do they have a tank.... In this instance there was also a tie-in with the songs on the album which had revolutionary political themes. The photo shoot for the album cover was done in a run-down area of New York where then-President Ronald Reagan had previously made a speech about urban regeneration. There's obviously a satirical element to it, they're basically sending up the Reagan government with it's emphasis on the military and secret intelligence. Video here with more information; [url=https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=Plasmatics+Coup+d%27Etat&&mid=54BE7AE1693A0F7381CC54BE7AE1693A0F7381CC&&FORM=VRDGAR]Bing Videos[/url] Another video here from 1985 with the band performing No Class from the album; [url=https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=Plasmatics+No+Class&&mid=56408D635CE5C884503256408D635CE5C8845032&&FORM=VRDGAR]Bing Videos[/url] Another documentary video about the Plasmatics here; [url=https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=Plasmatics+12+noon&&mid=11E5FFBD635E51E8E5D311E5FFBD635E51E8E5D3&&FORM=VRDGAR]Bing Videos[/url] More here; [url=https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=Plasmatics+masterplan&&mid=A599D78BCA7D6C83C809A599D78BCA7D6C83C809&&FORM=VRDGAR]Bing Videos[/url]  

[quote][i][b]JSouthworth[/b] wrote:[/i] ... I think there needs to be some kind of believable or at least semi-believable subtext or narrative, if you think in terms of who are these people, why do they have a tank.... In this instance there was also a tie-in with the songs on the album which had revolutionary political themes. The photo shoot for the album cover was done in a run-down area of New York where then-President Ronald Reagan had previously made a speech about urban regeneration. There's obviously a satirical element to it, they're basically sending up the Reagan government with it's emphasis on the military and secret intelligence. ...  [/quote] It looks like you have done a lot of research and have several ideas... are you likely to do a shoot? I would love to see the results.

[quote][i][b]RolandRock[/b] wrote:[/i] [quote][i][b]JSouthworth[/b] wrote:[/i] ... I think there needs to be some kind of believable or at least semi-believable subtext or narrative, if you think in terms of who are these people, why do they have a tank.... In this instance there was also a tie-in with the songs on the album which had revolutionary political themes. The photo shoot for the album cover was done in a run-down area of New York where then-President Ronald Reagan had previously made a speech about urban regeneration. There's obviously a satirical element to it, they're basically sending up the Reagan government with it's emphasis on the military and secret intelligence. ...  [/quote] It looks like you have done a lot of research and have several ideas... are you likely to do a shoot? I would love to see the results.[/quote] Yeah, I do have a few ideas for a shoot using a tank. But at the moment I don't have access to a tank. It would have to be a tank, not some other AFV, a modern rather than WW2 type and ideally it would be repainted specifically for the photo shoot and/or video shoot.  There are lots of videos of nude models shooting guns and driving armoured vehicles on the internet; [url=https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=nude+girls+with+guns&&view=detail&mid=56173CF87DE3771F8C0856173CF87DE3771F8C08&&mmscn=vidadt&FORM=VRDGAR]Girls With Guns - Bing video[/url] But it's one thing to do that and another to do something which has some depth to it, a narrative element which people can identify with, a real storyline as it were. Tanks-a-lot is one UK company that can sell you a tank; [url=https://tanks-alot.co.uk/]Tank Driving Experiences For The Full Day & Tank Hire (Media) (tanks-alot.co.uk)[/url] Something like this might be suitable; [url=https://tanks-alot.co.uk/product/challenger-1-lockdown-opportunity/]Challenger 1 Tank Prototype (ATR-1) For Sale (Restoration Project) (tanks-alot.co.uk)[/url]  

[quote][i][b]JSouthworth[/b] wrote:[/i] [quote][i][b]RolandRock[/b] wrote:[/i] It looks like you have done a lot of research and have several ideas... are you likely to do a shoot? I would love to see the results.[/quote] Yeah, I do have a few ideas for a shoot using a tank. But at the moment I don't have access to a tank. It would have to be a tank, not some other AFV, a modern rather than WW2 type and ideally it would be repainted specifically for the photo shoot and/or video shoot.   [/quote] So in a word, "No". That's a shame, you talk a fine talk and I was looking forward to seeing the walk.

Patience, dude. Maybe you will, or maybe you won't, because opportunities to do something like this are fairly uncommon. Either way, I'm not in the position of having to prove anything here.

[quote][i][b]JSouthworth[/b] wrote:[/i] Patience, dude. Maybe you will, or maybe you won't, because opportunities to do something like this are fairly uncommon. Either way, I'm not in the position of having to prove anything here.[/quote] No pressure, your ideas interested me and I was intrigued to see what you would create but I absolutely defend your right to build castles in the air.

[quote][i][b]RolandRock[/b] wrote:[/i] [quote][i][b]JSouthworth[/b] wrote:[/i] Patience, dude. Maybe you will, or maybe you won't, because opportunities to do something like this are fairly uncommon. Either way, I'm not in the position of having to prove anything here.[/quote] No pressure, your ideas interested me and I was intrigued to see what you would create but I absolutely defend your right to build castles in the air.[/quote] So are you trying to tell me that a shoot of this kind is impossible, or something else? It does present some difficult problems for the reasons I've already outlined. I do have some picture ideas, but not enough to do a photo shoot, yet. And I haven't told you what the ideas are. Finding a tank in a situation that allows nude models to be photographed posing on it is in some ways the easy part.

Looking at the visual style of the 1995 Tank Girl movie, they did it in a way that was partly kitsch and partly surrealistic, they had a WW2 US M5 light tank which they modified so it looked rather like the tanks in the comic book, they didn't go for a realistic look. There are some erotic and sexual visual elements in the film, but the producers cut a lot out before release, they apparently got a little nervous about some of the feminist themes and ideas.  [url=https://www.artofthetitle.com/title/tank-girl/]Tank Girl (1995) — Art of the Title[/url] Some useful artwork here, clearly relating to the Girls und Panzer franchise, in this instance the tank is a Leopard 2A6 I think. The idea of tank warfare as a competitive sport for Japanese schoolgirls is obviously silly; the element of realism comes from the resemblance of their uniforms to those of the military. Today, female members of military units often wear camouflage pattern combat jackets and trousers but in the mid to late 20th century, including the WW2 period the usual uniform for women consisted of a jacket, buttoned shirt, tie, uniform cap and short to mid length skirt. [url=https://wallhere.com/en/wallpaper/1231269]Wallpaper : tank, Girls und Panzer, winter, forest, artwork, Nishizumi Maho, Itsumi Erika 1920x1200 - Javalonte - 1231269 - HD Wallpapers - WallHere[/url] [url=https://kr.pinterest.com/pin/819866307138026213/]Pin page (pinterest.com)[/url]  

Until recently, female tank crews did compete in a sport called the Tank Biathlon which was an event in the International Army Games, an annual military competition organised by the Russian Ministry of Defence. This was last held in 2022. As with the Skiing Biathlon the event combines shooting and movement across country. [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_biathlon]Tank biathlon - Wikipedia[/url] [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Army_Games]International Army Games - Wikipedia[/url] [url=https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tech/330835-russias-first-ever-female-tank-crew]Russia’s first ever female tank crew (PHOTOS) - Russia Beyond (rbth.com)[/url]

An eight year old article here about female tank crews training in the Donetsk People's Republic; [url=https://eu.eot.su/2016/09/12/female-tank-crew-members-in-dpr-army-photo-report/]Female tank crew members in DPR army (photo report) (eot.su)[/url] In the Russian army, tank crew members are required to be no taller than 170cm, or 5 ft 7 in, because of the design of Russian tanks. This also applies in other armies that use Russian tanks. American and Western European tanks are generally larger and more spacious. Tank operation today may be marginally less intensive physically than during the WW2 period. Video here shows the procedure of starting a Panther tank using the inertia starter. Like the Tiger, this tank also had an electric starter, but in cold weather the capacity of the batteries was reduced and the inertia starter was normally used. [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqQe5fea5eE]Starting Massive German Panther Tank By Hand - Tank Engine Start-up (youtube.com)[/url] Changing a track on a tank is considered the most physically demanding job for tank crews, a notoriously labour-intensive task. [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSx7v0Irg-4]Changing Tracks on a Leopard - Not often seen maintanance (youtube.com)[/url]

On some more modern tanks an electric starter is used to start an APU, or Auxiliary Power Unit which then provides electrical power to start the main engine; [url=https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=chieftain+tank+start&&mid=9438A275E63821058BEF9438A275E63821058BEF&&FORM=VRDGAR]Bing Videos[/url]

Within NATO, Denmark was probably the first army to deploy female tank crews in the 1980s. Some Swedish and German tanks also have female crews. [url=https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-nato-exercises-in-germany-female-crew-of-a-tank-centurion-of-danish-73397089.html]NATO exercises in Germany, female crew of a tank Centurion of Danish Army Stock Photo - Alamy[/url]

[i][b]JSouthworth[/b][/i]: I am unsure if you are looking for sage advice on this topic, or are just using the thread to show you are able to use internet search engines, but if you are indeed seeking advice on photographing models in replicated conflict themes mine would be to:- [list=1] [*]spend some time building up your portfolio to attract models to work with you on future projects and [*]try undertaking some street photography in areas experiencing relatively minor conflict. [/list] On this last point Gaza & Beirut or Ukraine are a bit too hot at present, and Ulster (below) is relatively quiet at the moment, but if you keep a beady eye on the 24-hour news channels you could well find unrest breaking out one weekend just a short car journey away. [img]https://kelsey.oak-cdn.co.uk/mdc005xlarge.jpg[/img] Ulster in more troubled times [i]images © Bob Morrison / Dave Reynolds / Dave Reynolds / Bob Morrison[/i]  

Given that there is not really anything inherently sexy or erotic about a tank or the concept of a female tank crew, how can we approach the problem of how to combine glamour and an armoured vehicle in a photo shoot? Looking at the Tank Girls book we can see that it's not enough to dress up models in military uniforms and have them pose on a tank, on the assumption that the result will be stylish and sexy. This is no reflection on the models or the photographer, it just proves that picture ideas are all-important.  An element of realism is clearly necessary for the viewers to be able to relate to the artwork. There has to be a believable narrative element, involving a tank or armoured vehicle. The Girls und Panzer franchise is clearly pandering to male fantasies in a way which is somewhat disturbing to Western sensibilities, and you would probably need to be Japanese to fully understand it I think. Girls and armoured vehicles are important elements in other Anime films and series including Dominion Tank Police and Ghost in the Shell; Stand Alone Complex.  

[quote][i][b]Bob[/b] wrote:[/i] [i][b]JSouthworth[/b][/i]: I am unsure if you are looking for sage advice on this topic, or are just using the thread to show you are able to use internet search engines[/quote] Wrong, and wrong again. I'm simply trying to address a problem on a theoretical level, with a view to possible practical applications in model photography. You might like to take a look at my profile on Deviantart before you start telling me about street photography. You will also notice that I have pictures of models wearing tank tops. [url=https://www.deviantart.com/jsouthworth/gallery]JSouthworth User Profile | DeviantArt[/url]